Performance Management for Remote and Hybrid Working

Karlie: [00:00:13] Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. I'll just give it give it maybe 40 seconds just to let people come through that waiting room and then we'll kick off. Right there. Thank you. To those of you still coming through, I'll give it maybe just 15 more seconds and then then we'll kick off. So the last few were coming through. Thank you very much to everyone who's come in so far, very prompt. Okay. There's a few more coming through, but I think if we kick off, they can catch up. So thank you. Thank you all so much for joining us this afternoon. We're doing our webinar today on performance management for remote and hybrid working. Right. So what we're going to cover today, we'll look at the current challenges in performance management and particularly in the context of the new way of working, whatever that is for your organization. We'll have a quick look at identifying under performance. We'll look at performance management for high performance as well, because that's an area where we see a little bit of neglect at times, strategies to boost employee engagement through performance management. So actually using performance management in your toolkit for enhanced employee experience. Key trends and best practice for performing for high performing remote and hybrid teams and the role that performance management plays in that. And then at the end, we'll also have a Q&A session for if you have any particular queries that you'd like me to talk through, feel free to throw them into either the Q&A or the the chat function as as we go. And I will do my best to answer all of those at the end. Fantastic. So that's me. Pre-covid, it's been a rough couple of years, but my name is Karlie. I'm the managing director of Dynamic Leadership Programs Australia, or the DLPA. We work with organisations to create enhanced employee experiences and we do that through a few different ways. In this webinar I'll be talking specifically around some of the things that we've been seeing on market work well for performance management in particular. Perfect. So the traditional challenges that we see in performance management. Historically, we've seen that the process is paper based or very time consuming. So it has limited engagement and you'd be surprised how large some companies are, whilst maintaining a predominantly paper based process that the performance management can have no clear purpose. So it's something that you do once a year or twice a year or when it comes up. And most commonly we see that it has no performance related purpose. So it's really just tied to that review or similar. So people really only engage with the compensation element. We see organisations wait for poor performance before they intervene. So rather than taking preventative steps, we wait until poor performance shows up and then we take action. A lot of the performance management is turned into under performance management. And what that means is that your high performance actually don't get the benefits of engaging with a really effective performance management process. So it's really just doing the clean up on the bottom end of things rather than engaging with the full spectrum, but particularly at the top, and a lack of learning pathways or a sense of progression. So that's where, particularly in organisations where there's not many roles to move into. So there's not traditional promotions of then how in a performance management process do you give the sense of progression and that that there's a pathway and a development way forward. So then there's a question about and what what now about remote and hybrid working. So we've got our first poll question now. Should pop up on your screens. So which working arrangement is your organization current utilizing traditional meaning in your physical workplace and how things were pre-COVID? 100% remote. So have you shifted to everyone? There's no physical presence anymore. Everyone's working remotely, whatever that means. A hybrid of traditional and remote or other we are seeing. An increasing amount in that other bucket. Some very, very creative, very creative solutions to how how workforces are going to be working going forward. So if you can pop your answers in there, we'll have the answers come up in just a second. Perfect. So most of you are solid. Most of you are working on hybrids. So that would be the most common thing that we're seeing on market. Usually something like a 2, 3, so three, three in the office, whatever your office is and to remotely or we're seeing some two in the office and 3 to 3 remotely. But yes, there's certainly a mix and we've got we've got some people in the traditional as well, which is fantastic. We're certainly seeing that. And no one in the 100% remote. That's that's interesting. We we're working with some people who are in that category and it's certainly an interesting barrel of monkeys. Perfect. So some of the thank you very much, by the way, for popping your answers in there. Challenges in the remote and hybrid working that that we're seeing is that there's less visual indicators now that is both for productivity. So for for output, how do you see what someone is doing? But it's also for seeing how people are relating to each other. And we're seeing some interesting things come up as a result of that as businesses shift to. How do we manage this now and how do you measure productivity on things you can't see? So pre COVID, if you didn't have a framework in place for measuring what productivity looked like, you've likely had a bit of a teething issue through through to now and and potentially you still don't have an answer. People are feeling isolated. That's obviously very a very common one, depending on your company culture and also the way that you're managing people's workflows when when they're physically in an office. Office, something in a physically in a workplace or remote, people can end up feeling quite disconnected from from the company or from their team or from from the broader organisation as well. There's real difficulties in uniting and focusing on what matters most. So when everyone was 100% in the one place, there were a lot of mechanisms which were very visual and physical in making sure that everyone was pulling in the same direction, seeing when people weren't and correcting it and communicating really where people could add value. We've seen that not not a lot of organisations have managed that well to be honest as we've gone into hybrid and 100% remote. And a critical one that we are seeing with a lot of our clients is, well, how do you talk about performance when not face to face? That can be can be a real challenge. You know, we know not to fire people by text message, but what about having some quite charged conversations at at times when we're not physically present with each other and all the risks that that that that brings in? It's a real challenge for a lot of businesses. So how can you be more effective in your performance management? Which is what we'll go into now. So if we can before going into that, the more proactive things, if we can talk about managing under performance because this is something that definitely sits within performance management and is often what businesses want to talk to us about first. To deal with that and then. And then move into the more proactive areas. What we are seeing is that under performance in particular 100% remote, but hybrid as well is a little bit harder to pick and particularly performance problems and interpersonal problems. We're seeing that kind of blow up from an employer's perspective, blow up unexpectedly, because you can't see what's going on in a in a dynamic. And that that is adding real challenge to to how you go about performance management, because you're coming in so late to these problems when we're talking about under performance. So someone isn't delivering what you need them to deliver. To to even the minimum standard of what you need them to deliver. The things that we recommend that you do clearly define the required output. And I know that sounds simple, but so often it's the case that people are organizations have not clearly told people what it is that they need to deliver. And it was a lot simpler when we were all in one physical workplace. At the same time. We had much more visual workflows, but. Clearly defining what it is that you need that role or that person to deliver is really important. And in the absence of you know producing X number of widgets per hour, you need to look at how you measure those deliverables. And so that is things like KPIs, it is things like OKRs, but it's also looking at what is the value and contribution that this that I'm asking of this person and what does minimum bare minimum look like and what does stretch look like? Because if you don't if you're not clear on that, you can't ask your team to be. And and if you're not measuring it, it's also difficult to intervene because you're very late. But there's a problem set behavioral boundaries. This has been one of the key ones, and I know there's a lot of quite humorous memes on socials and whatever, but behavioral boundaries were just a lot easier to to manage when we're all physically together, when we're working remotely and working in a hybrid way, it's a lot more complicated. So and to be honest, the behavioral standards are different, aren't they? For when you're not physically in the office, some of those behaviors can change. And so being very clear around what does that look like? Is is it that very simple example? But is it that people are allowed to go get their groceries in the morning and make up the time at another time? Or is that not allowed? Is is it that, you know, you have that flex time is between 10 and 12 and the give and take of that. But just being very clear around that and obviously communication standards and things of that nature have needed a fair bit of attention in recent times and continue to as well. Act early is so important. There is there is really a tipping point with under performance where it's really highly unlikely that you're going to come back to a good spot and you're really just starting to talk about, well, what is the lowest risk termination or other separation that that you can get to? Whereas if you act early, there is genuine possibility of things changing. So that is really important. And if you need support, ask for it. Don't wait for a crisis that the support might come from within your organisation. It might be external people. You might need legal counsel depending on your environment and your workforce in the nature of the problem. But getting that early and really having a strategy so that you have coordinated resources and not just running around with a mop, hoping for things to change is is really, is really important of just getting, getting the support. So on to elements of successful performance management. So this is for all performance management of high performance middle and and your bottom quadrant. So the process itself needs to have a clear purpose. People need to understand why, why they would engage with it, why they would put time into it, and what they can expect as an outcome from it. The and I would recommend that that is something other than a pay rise or promotion that that it's something something else meaningful comes out of the process. That it has an accessible structure. So this is we see a lot of paper forms and that can be hard for people to access, particularly if you're not in a physical workplace. So transporting these things around digital is important, but just because something's digital doesn't mean it's accessible if I can draw that distinction. So it needs to be something that the barrier to participation is very low because if it's too hard to engage, people are going to wait till it's crisis. And that's when you get that under performance business where it wasn't it wasn't accessible, it wasn't easy to use. It felt too difficult, you know, and people just just don't engage. So it needs to be accessible participation for everyone, not just under performance. So as I've said, performance conversations are something that should happen all the time and regularly for everyone and should be about what have I done really well and what can I do better? What how can I develop? How can I contribute more? What do I want from my employment in my career, in my life? You know that that conversation is becoming much more three dimensional than than pre-COVID and much more equal in power balance as well. And it's important to to honour that in your process, I think, and really just genuinely have participation for everyone. A clear link to strategy and daily action. So your strategy in this. This is our method. Your strategy should be driving everything in your organisation, but particularly your performance management. Your strategy is what everyone in the organisation is there to deliver. So it should be informing daily action and I as workers should understand how it links to my daily action. And that can be very complex or it can be very simple. That's a lot of variables that go into that, not least for what your strategy is and who your staff are. But that link has to be there and it has to be to daily action, because if the intervals are too long, I'm not going to engage in it. And I need to understand every day that I'm making contribution to the company and what it links into. Regular check ins are really important and really, really important in hybrid working. So regular check ins, I would say need to be as it's regular but short and to the point with a really clear purpose about why am I doing that? We're not going to have a 45 minute meeting every other day. We're not going to have a half hour meeting every week unless it serves a purpose. It's that regular check in. It doesn't have to be a meeting. It can be. We've seen some very cool things that people can do with the online tools that are there, just for people to have that check in point, make sure that what I'm doing is right, making sure that if I need something, resources are coming or I can tell someone and that there's those regular gates. So I don't kind of list into things that don't add value. One of the the key changes that we've probably seen with hybrid working in particular is having we've kind of always had the individual development plans. So that's where you'd have your KPIs or your OKRs or however you term the output that you're looking for. You'd have your goals for the next period you development. So that might be training and development or some coaching or what other supports are going to go in until the till your next gate. Those have always been recommended. The shift has been to end team development plans. So really developing as a team and having our team also KPIs, having our team development, what are we going to do together to do better? How are we together growing? And that's just really important to making sure that everyone within the team units is focused on adding value and things that are actually valuable and also keeping that connection and productivity and making sure that people aren't feeling that isolation and aren't kind of drifting ever so slightly away from from what is required. From from best practice in the company culture and it just keeps it nice and tight. And having that into the overall performance management process is very I would, I would say critical. Now fostering connection through shared goals is that again, that's always been there as a feature, but it's really now central that we need to make sure that yes, there is the individual goals so people are able to grow outside of their immediate role, for example, and a feeling that growth. But really also being very closely aligned to the company and the team and feeling our community of our workplaces, peer recognition and of putting bracketed with with with the framework and. The reason I say that, if very briefly talk about an example of this. If you don't have the right culture and just go, okay, if you want to recognize your peers, you can have some really negative things happen. So you need to give people a framework to give effective feedback and effective recognition. So first of all, you have to tell people what to recognize of. They need to have a sense of what is valuable and this is what you're going to recognize. They also probably need to have have the skills around how you give constructive and effective feedback. So we've seen to two or three companies run into peer recognition. It's great. We're going to have nominated awards and the recognition and the managers get X amount to give us comp and this sort of thing, but the culture hasn't been there to support that. And so what it's actually done is been a really nice platform for bullying and things of that nature. It's in the extreme, but people can get left behind, is my point. If you don't if you don't have a nice framework for telling people how to do that, but an important element nonetheless. So aligning goals to strategy is really, really important. Sounds simple. Don't often see it done that well, I'm sure. Yeah. There's, there's enough people on the call that some of you will be doing it really, really well. But a lot of you won't. You as organizations won't be because it's something that I think a lot of organizations don't always put the time into getting it exactly right. So when we talk about aligning goals to strategy, capability, frameworks or similar are really important. Now, capability frameworks are one of those things that sound really confusing and a little bit complicated and can be, but in their magnificent form, they're super simple and something that your workforce really love and engage with. So important to have a framework there, at any rate, that that gives people the structure and articulates behavior. The strategic plan should be the source of direction. So I know there's a few companies on, but the private entities, a lot of the time we see their strategy is a secret because they generally say it's commercial in confidence, but it's usually because they're scared it won't work and they don't want people to know when it doesn't. But there are commercial and confidence elements of the strategy. But your people, if you want them to pull in the right direction, they need to know which direction it is. And that strategic plan should be giving you that direction. So really, really important. Can't emphasize that enough. Clearly articulate the behaviors required. So a capability framework, you'd usually have your capabilities set from there. You'd have individual capability statements which talk about skills and then you have proficiency levels which talk about, well, what behavior would you see if someone that someone were at each proficiency level? And so really clearly articulating that behavior is really important. Mapping learning pathways to increase value is also really important with that. So mapping. More formally mapping out learning pathways so people can see its relationship to your capability framework or similar, and so that people can see why they want to learn things, what it is they're going to know and how that is going to contribute to the to the company or to their career in another company is really important for that engagement piece. Create meaningful individual goals linked to organizational strategic goals. Pre-covid we saw that much tighter. So that was a much more. This is a strategy and the cascading down and it's all every single goal is going to be only company. We're seeing that diversify now. So there does need to be individual goals in the mix that may have have a more tenuous link to to strategy. But they need to be sitting in a cluster that is is tightly aligned. And utilizing team goals to be to build cohesion and connection. So as I mentioned before, having those team goals, team sprints, team huddle, if you have the culture to support that sort of thing, they are really important to to the overall overall effectiveness of your system. And getting those things right really minimizes the risk of people falling into that under performance category. If I can just this. I'm not talking down to anyone, but the concepts that we just went through can can sound more complicated or it can be hard to see how they relate to you. So this is just a very simple example of how that would cascade down. So your strategy might be to exceed customer expectations. So that's your strategy. Your capability. Then sitting under that will be customer service. So that's your capability stream that will have capability statements underneath it. The target attribute might be resolved. So this is the behavior to resolve complex customer issues and that might be your level two. So level one might be identifying customer issues and level two might be resolved complex customer issues. The results based goals or an OKR similar might be having less than 5% of customer contact result in escalation. That number will be different. Some companies would be horrified at that, but it'll be particular to your industry. And then within the training, within the development plan, I should say, there might be a training need for conflict resolution because that's going to mean that I can I'm better equipped to resolve customer issues, and that will be my learning pathway of how I'm going up the capability. Apologies if people are well across that, but often people get a little bit of white noise sometimes when when you talk in to conceptual level. So looking at boosting engagement through performance management. It can be a great tool. So done poorly. Performance management disengages people. It becomes a tick and flick. People hate doing it. You have you have to race on people to get them to fill in their forms. Whatever your forms are, it can be a really energizing, engaging process that's dynamic and is actually easy, easy for people to relate to and use has a purpose and it can actually make your teams more effective and clearer on what they need to deliver. So the key things are those regular check ins, whatever that is, whether it's those digital pulse checks, whether it is a meeting. We have plenty of clients who that's their culture. They need a face to face meeting. So they're using their time in the physical workplace to do some of those check ins. But they need to be need to be regular. What regular means will depend on your workflows. Performance management needs to be linked to daily action. So it's not just something that I'm going to do every quarter, six months, 12 month, whatever. It's linked to daily action that I'm clear on my performance. It's directed by this mechanism and I know how I can add value. A clear map for progression and progression really can mean growth, and we're seeing the workforce much more open to growth opportunities rather than promotions. Now, particularly in organizations that have those really flat hierarchies where there's no way to be promoted to. But you can still progress and have growth, provide benefits such as efficiency and focus. So use the performance management to tell me what what can I do to add value? What can I do better? What do I need to focus on providing stretch goals for high performance? So that's so important. To keep your high performance engaged, you need to be making sure that they're challenged in in their work. They need to have something beyond the bare minimum to to aim for. And there needs to be some form of reward, obviously, for doing that. But keeping high performers engaged with those stretch goals and identifying them as stretch goals is really important. And I would recommend that you utilize a sprint or similar methodology. So depending on your workflow of sprint might be seven weeks, it might be one week, it might be three months. There are organizations we work with and that's a sprint for their workflows because of. Just because of how long or how long the cycle is. But having that sprint that you have a short, punchy timeline to go to, it's not forever away. I know I need to take action right now for it. Get there to those goal posts. Celebrate next goal post and sprint to the next. So that's through agile methodologies and things like that. Fantastic. So last question. I have two case studies to talk through, so I try to pick which one. I just want to make sure that it's relevant to most people. So are you most interested in managing under performance or engaging the team generally with performance management or a bit of both? You can just. And if you don't answer, I'll just pick one. Interesting bit of both. That's pretty even spread. I wish we wish we had time for both. Wish we had time for both. I might might email around the one that we that we don't talk about. Okay. I'll. Yep. Okay. I'll talk about the generalized one, but it has elements of of managing under performance in it. It's well. Fantastic. So we were working with a company that is in. Health. Health adjacent, I suppose industry. And their key problem of why they came to us was that they were finding their workforce generally a bit disjointed. So they'd had the lockdowns as a lot of Australia has, they had attempted 100% remote. It hadn't gone very well. They'd come back 100% into the physical work. Workplace laws were changing but then also their workforce didn't really want to do that anymore, so they ended up in a hybrid. So the three to type arrangement and what they were finding was that it was a bit disjointed, that they were getting surprised with a lot of complaints. So coming out of nowhere. So there were interpersonal issues which from their perspective, were coming out of nowhere. There wasn't much run into them. They really just wanted to get everyone focus back, deal with the under performance element so more people into the mainstream and really get a nice performance management process in place. That was going to make people or bring people to a level of engagement and make sure that everyone was focusing on what mattered. So the first thing that we did, we had built them capability framework many years ago. The first thing that we did was we reviewed that because your managers in particular. But also your workforce. Fundamentally at the moment need more. Not more. They need a different skill set to to deal with a hybrid working arrangement. And so we reviewed that capability framework and refined it. So some some capability sets were exactly the same. Some were no longer relevant. And then there was some new ones. And so particularly we were looking at elements. So for for non managers, it was looking predominantly at capabilities that were to do with internal locus of control. So looking at me, working from home. Working from home, working remotely, I need to take much more responsibility for the direction of my day and for quality checks and for taking ownership of what I'm doing. And so I may not have I may not have the skills to do that. That may be completely foreign. And then as a manager, I need to be empowering that, but empowering people to. This change that's going to be. I need to be empowering people to be able to do that, to be taking responsibility for their workflow and being accountable for it. And I may not be used to that. I may not have had to do that with my teams before. I might have had a different structure in place that was we're really seeing micromanages and people who hold a tight control and there's industries where you need to that is very hard. That is very hard in a hybrid in a hybrid model. And so the first thing that we did was refresh the capability framework to reflect that and identify the learning pathways for upskilling the workforce to thrive. Hopefully thrive in that environment. We then looked at the teams and set the team goals for each team to really focus in on strategic delivery of what they what they needed to get done. That we put some structures around that as well. Around they went with a version of the team huddle and utilizing the the mix of time for maximum effect. So when you're all physically together making sure you're using that time to form cohesion and focus and utilizing the time when you're not for the things that are most effective in that time, and then setting the goals and the milestones for to make sure that people are delivering things in a timely and a timely way that had a lot of program creep through through the hybrid. The Sprint methodology. As I mentioned, we put that in both in the individual plans and the team plans, just making sure that everything's quite time oriented. There's a sense of urgency because that is one of the key things that we've seen kind of disappear culturally and a lot of organizations is that sense of urgency because everything became critical. And then it. I think it was just too much. And so everything everything fell back. Then we on the end of that, then we built a performance management framework. So that was in their instances. It's a digital process and an entirely digital process with a face to face check in in the middle. So they do the employee goes in and fills in their questionnaire, the manager reviews it and fills in their questionnaire. The system kind of generates some stuff and then they do a check in face to face, but validate it, make sure everyone understands what's in there. And then you go through t a development plan that has mechanisms for for measuring. But the key thing about so that's quite specific, but the key thing about the performance management framework for them was it described what? It's discussed when and how so? One of the issues that they were experiencing was with performance conversations which were not favorable of. That wasn't something that they felt should happen on Zoom or teams or whatever. And so just how to manage when those conversations were happening, how to also the other side of the positive of their culture. They got more uplift from that if those conversations were face to face and there was public celebration. So within that performance management framework, we clearly defined how information was going to flow between the parties when and on what medium. And that for them was was really important as well. And so that that's kind of their their performance management process that that they're seeing they've got with their gold cluster. So they've got cascading goals. So we've got our strategic goals and then from those team goals but clusters for things that the individual teams identified as meaningful for them and then individual goals of that again in clusters. So that's the ones that are 100% hooked into the strategy. Those are the ones that are going to give you nice, productive daily tasks and then the ones that are kind of adjacent to that. So they sit in the cluster, but they're more meaningful to the individual and those are the ones that are going to hopefully get the the retention of staff and keep them connected beyond their core duties. So if I can just about on time, but if we can just very quickly talk about training and development or learning and development. This is a real opportunity for organizations within performance management. You can do it very cheaply. You can do it not exactly a set and forget, but with minimum maintenance. And it can be a great tool for engaging your staff and hooking it into your performance. Management just makes it a lot easier to have other conversations that you need to have, and it makes them a lot more meaningful when you do. So just some quick tricks, tips on your learning and development is. A caution would be manage on line fatigue that people really we're seeing people really value the face to face communication and getting out of their houses and and offices and physical workplaces and things like that. But people don't want to spend their days online. So it has its place, but just be mindful. Blended learning is often best. So as I say, online has its place, but it's really just about that instructional design around what is going to make the most sense for how that all sits together using workshops in residential for really high impact training. So using if you can get a morning or a half day or a full da or Multi-day offsite for Bang for Buck, I would really recommend that. And that's going to give you the nice team cohesion as well and a really good platform to get into that. Complement with online self paced bite size, really critical to effective learning, I think is that that bite sized stuff regularly and accessibly complemented with the more intensive learning very important. And just finally on the bottom there, you you can utilize it for team building, learning, strategic alignment, a way of bringing remote teams together, a reason to bring remote teams together. And they can be really, really valuable, high impact, low cost things to to have you to just thinking more strategically about your learning. So it's not just about the skills they can really deliver so much. You're learning programs can deliver so much to an organization. So the key tips from from all of that utilize software to lower barriers to participation and utility of data. Now, when I say software that could be Excel for your organization, Excel is not inherently wrong, but it's just about using the digital tools that are there. There are so many. They're relatively inexpensive. There are expensive ones, but most of them are relatively inexpensive. And utilizing them to lower that barrier to participation and give you really meaningful access to data is just so important. Keep your finger on the pulse is in a hybrid in particular is really important. You need to know what's going on in your organization and you need to have mechanisms that deal with things not being as visible, physically visible as as they once were. So you need to have a sense of what's going on. Before things blow up. Fostering a sense of connection. So we've we've been through creating, engaging, targeted development plans so that my development plan, I completely understand how it relates to me and I'm engaged with it. It's spurring me on to do better and it tells me why. Take daily action, targeted, continual development. So every single day I understand that I'm contributing something and that's going to keep me really engaged in what I'm doing and make under performance much less likely manage under performance early. We've spoken about that. That is is even more critical with it becoming apparent later. You need to jump on it. Jump on it straight away, because sloppy management of under performance is always expensive and doesn't doesn't serve anyone's needs. Clearly defined required outputs or contribution. So most most organizations can't measure those widgets per hour. So looking at, well, what isn't that I'm asking of you and what does okay, good and great look like. And workers need to be much more self directed. So you need to be equipping both the worker and the managers and leaders in your organizations to be able to do that effectively and be able to work together in a in a productive, productive way. With what for many people is a new a new skill set. Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time and for listening through all of that. I can see a few questions have come in, so I'll just jump in and have a look. Okay. So we had one, Aaron was saying, can you place a leopard feather on the capability framework? Examples of a loader event capability framework. Okay. Okay fantastic. So I'll that's a cluster of questions in there around capability framework so I'll talk through them quickly. Hopefully I've answered a few of a few of them. But the, the capability frameworks, there's a lot of really good ones actually, particularly with Victorian Government. If, if you're after some ideas you can always Google the VPS capability framework. It's quite nice and you can get quite targeted ones as well. So you have the capabilities of communication, customer service, these sorts of things, but then you can also have competencies. So technical things around engineering or medical licensing or, you know, construction plants and things of this nature and build, build that out for your organisation in particular since there's a few questions in there, what I might do actually we have. like a short form capability framework that we use. I'm happy to send that round and people can have a look. If you have questions after that, just feel free to to book in a time with with me and I'll kind of talk you through the elements of that. Yeah. Okay. So how can you motivate underperforming employees? I think there's. Connection and go go settings of being clear about what it is that you want from them, having a really honest conversation with them, which depending on the legal context of your organization, then you need to be need to be clear of those risks. But actually talking to them around what is going on and what's in the way of this this performance level that we need and why are we here? It may be structural, it may be environmental. Maybe they're not equipped at home to be able to do those things. And you need to look at alternatives. But actually delving into the why. And then on the end of that, I'd say the you know, that joke about how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? And it's irrelevant. The light bulb has to want to change, but the light bulb has to want to change. So if what I mean by that is if it's a will thing, so the person just has no desire to do their best work, then there's a decision for the organisation around. Well, is that something that we can tolerate or is do do we need to go into more more of an off boarding type method. Yeah. So there is a question in there around if the person in charge who needs he needs to engage is the one underperforming. Yeah. So that's, that's quite awkward when, when that, that happens is I think most of us can appreciate. Yeah. I mean, I think capability frameworks are really good for that because then you can do. So what I mean is when, when it's a leader who is underperforming capability frameworks are particularly good because they highlight you do a on a capability framework, you do a capability assessment so that you you do one and your manager, your peer does one. And so you look at the differences and that can be a really great way of getting a leader to self realization of under performance, which is the best outcome. If they can't get there, then I think you need to have a full and frank conversation around around that the output, the output required and that either they need to deliver the skill, develop the skill to do that, or they may be on the wrong bus. Yeah. There's a few hundred. If you want the capability framework, I will send that round. I promise I'll send that round to to everyone so you can have a look into this. I'll send a link so you can look in with me if you want a chance. There's. I'm not going to sell you anything I just want you to get value from the process. So do you have examples of what growth could look like outside of promotion? Yeah, for sure. So it can be more responsibility, it can be more skills, which can either be in traditional qualifications or it can be in just particular areas of interest growth. Could be that. So if I know that I'm going to cap out at this organisation, but I want to be here for five years, it can be engaging with someone about what that after this organisation looks like and equipping them for that and there's nothing wrong with that. Like we don't have to marry our employers, you know, it's not necessarily for life, but it can be be for a period of time and that's fine. So just having those sorts of timelines are really, really important for, for people and can be great growth opportunities. Taking on special projects can be be great being an internal change ambassador and having a particular carriage of a particular project, that can be great. A lot of people are much more attached to status than money. I mean, they're still attached to money, right? But but status goes a long way. And and just having people feel. Feel that. That progression that year. I'm in charge of this and you get the street cred and whatever can can go a long way. And so there's a multitude of these sorts of examples. It's kind of particular to your structure and what, what you guys do, what you deliver. But there's a there really is a lot of opportunities because most organizations are. Very flat now. Very flat. Fantastic. And so I think there was I think there's just one more question in here, which was around a sprint methodology. So sprint methodology just means that we're in short bursts. So rather than running a marathon, we're just doing sprints. So we used to make these 12 to 60 month plans and that was how it was and everything was going to be linear and you'd kind of get eight months in and what you were doing wasn't relevant anymore, but you didn't know how to change. I would say the sprint methodology is much more worthwhile these days, which is just you have a short burst of time. As I say, for some organizations, that's a week, seven weeks, three months, whatever that interval is for you. And you just go hard on particular tight goals that are going to direct your action. And then at the end of that sprint or towards the end of that sprint, you refine what your next sprint is going to be. So you make sure that what you're doing is always relevant and it's adapting to the changing internal environment, but also the external environment. And you're not kind of getting on a path that is progressively irrelevant. Fantastic. Well, I think we've covered everything if. If I've missed anyone, any of your questions, feel free to reach out on LinkedIn or I'll send round this email to everyone with the framework. So if you've got questions, just just respond to that. Thank you so much for your time. I know you're horrendously busy people, so I do really appreciate it. I hope you got some value out of that. The site is next week we'll be exhibiting there. So we have a stand. If you want to come say hi, I'd love to to see some real life humans. Feel free to come by and have a chat. And if you haven't if you haven't had a look yet, jump online via the agenda. Looks really cool. There's some really worthwhile things to talk through. So I hope to see you all there.